‘What happened to us in 2019 can’t be the yardstick to approach relations between J&K and the Union govt’

It has always been my nature to do things, to carry everyone with me as far as possible. The only reason this wasn’t more apparent in my first term was because it was the UPA government and we were allies with the Congress. But when that government transitioned to Prime Minister Modi’s first government, it’s not as if the knives came out on the first day and suddenly my entire approach to center-state relations changed. I still continue to have the same attitude in terms of my approach to the central government as it was then. So, I mean, it’s no different now.

Now, what happened to us in 2019, whether to us personally in the way that we were treated or what happened to Jammu and Kashmir, that doesn’t change. But it can’t become the defining yardstick by which I approach the relations between J&K and the union government. We vehemently disagree with things that the BJP has done, continues to do. We oppose the BJP politically, have done, will continue. We are members of the INDIA bloc. So long as that bloc remains, we are a part of it. But this is about the government of J&K working with the government of India for the betterment of the people of J&K. And I think that is what I owe the people of J&K in this position. If the people feel that my approach is wrong at some point or the other, they will get the time to pass a verdict. And if they would rather J&K is at loggerheads with the union government and you end up with a more Kejriwal-like situation, then you have to be prepared for the Kejriwal-type results as well.

Muzamil Jaleel: You won a massive mandate in an election held after a decade. You promised that the honour and dignity of the people would be restored, special status would be restored.

Yes, the dignity of the people of J&K is paramount. But at no point have we told the people that during the term of this government, will any special status of J&K be restored. We have said we will continue to keep the issue alive, which we have done. We did it in the assembly, passing the resolution, and we have done it in statements and speeches: that will continue. But at no point did we ever mislead the people by telling them that they’re going to elect a government that is going to immediately get the special status restored. To expect the people who took it away from us to give it back to us, just because we’re asking for it, is pointless. The struggle for the removal of J&K’s special status was long. The BJP didn’t achieve it overnight. Whatever we have to do for its restoration will also be long. It’s not going to happen overnight. With statehood, we hope to be able to achieve some of the things that were lost to us when August 2019 took place, particularly preserving our jobs and our land.

Muzamil Jaleel: You’ve been the CM of J&K when it was a full state. How is it being the CM of the UT?

Are we able to do everything we want to? Are we in a position where we are able to do nothing at all? Also, not true. I think you have to find areas where you can achieve some sort of success while also recognising that there are areas where you will face a certain amount of frustration. Restoration of statehood is not just about governance. It’s about fulfilling the idea of democracy. At the end of the day, the people of J&K were promised full statehood for being part of the national mainstream and actively embracing participation in elections. But at the back of everyone’s mind was the continuous commitment from the government of India that statehood, full statehood to Jammu and Kashmir would be restored. And that, for us, is the first battle

India should have essentially two models and I’m leaving Delhi out of it because it’s the union capital and therefore you can’t sort of link it to any other. But in terms of the other states and territories, having now been chief minister of a state and chief minister of a union territory with an assembly, I believe that these union territories with assemblies are flawed models. You can’t have a hybrid democracy. You are either a democracy or you are not. You can’t give people the power to choose their government and then tie the hands of the government behind the back by empowering the lieutenant governor to supersede a number of things that the elected government wants to do. I think it’s dishonest with voters and subsequently this model should be done away with.

Muzamil Jaleel: Do you think you have been in a reconciliation mode with the central leadership since you took over?

Look, it’s not a question of being reconciliatory. Things that the government of India is doing, those we oppose. Like what’s happening in the Parliament with the Waqf Bill, we continue to oppose it. But if the union government is being supportive of what we’re doing in J&K, if they’re not going out of their way to be difficult or troublesome or deny us funds or things like that, I’d be foolish to go pick a fight where a fight isn’t necessary. That said, if their attitude changes tomorrow, then we’ll have to revisit ours. But at this point, the government of India hasn’t exactly given me a reason to go out and fight with them. Given my conversations at the levels that I’ve had with the Government of India, I’m expecting statehood to be restored in less than a year.

Deeptiman Tiwary: Since the abrogation, the ruling party has talked about bringing the law and order situation in J&K under control but this semblance of normalcy has been brought through coercive action – incarceration and liberal use of PSA (Public Safety Act). Can it endure? Also, in the recent security review meetings, the elected government has not been represented at all. How do you see this?

You have to make people partners in that peace process to achieve the last-mile success. Whatever you’ve achieved so far through coercive means there is a finite limit to how far that will succeed. At the end of the day, unless people actively participate, you can’t continue to sort of do it down the barrel of a gun.

Their imagination or at least their understanding of it is flawed. That said, I am not begging for a seat at the table. Security and law and order are not the responsibility of the elected government. I want them to be, but currently they are not. That said, if you believe that you can handle the security situation of J&K in isolation or in a vacuum, you can’t. At the end of the day, unless the people of J&K are partners in this move towards peace, there will come a point in time where you will not proceed any further. Not everything can be done through the CID and the IB and the Army and the police and the MI and all the rest of it. At some point in time, you’re going to have to have the cooperation of the people. And I made this point to the government of India recently after the killing of the truck driver in Sopore and the gentleman in Billawar. I said, it’s fine if you don’t include us in the security meetings. But then you also can’t look for us when the situation looks like it’s going bad and ask us, well, what should we do? Because if we’re not part of your matrix when you’re deciding what the security forces should do, we certainly shouldn’t be part of it when you have a problem and you need to resolve it.

Deeptiman Tiwary: If there is a regime change, is there a possibility of Article 370 being restored?

Umeed pe duniya kayam hai. I am sure things looked equally dire for the BJP when they were reduced to all of two members of Parliament after Rajiv Gandhi’s landslide victory. Nobody would have imagined that some years later we would be discussing a scenario where the mandir was also built, 370 was also gone, and common civil code was part of the discourse in a number of states. Previous court judgments found in favor of 370, this one found against. Circumstances change, situations change, I’m not going to pre-judge or sort of expect. I also understand that some parties that would be privately supportive find it difficult to be publicly so because of the general mood in the country. But moods also change.

Rakesh Sinha: In your early days, in your dealings with the Centre, have there been areas of convergence?

On the general belief that the mandate of the people of J&K is to be respected, yes. Would the central government have preferred a different outcome to this election? Obviously. I’m sure they would much rather be dealing with a BJP chief minister in J&K But that’s not what happened. That said, at least in all my conversations with them, they have made it very clear that whatever it is, the people have spoken, they’ve given a mandate and a verdict, and that verdict has to be respected.

Manoj CG: Whose responsibility is it to keep the INDIA bloc together. Is there any need for a leadership change?

It’s a collective responsibility. It will be unfair on my part to suggest that any one particular leader. I’m sure all of you are hoping that I’d say it’s Rahul Gandhi’s responsibility, and then that becomes the headline. We collectively, all of us together, put the INDIA block where it is. So therefore, to suggest that one person or one party has a greater responsibility of keeping us together would be unfair. We need more clarity as to what was the purpose of our coming together. Because I keep hearing different points of view. We were just for Parliament. We’re just for this, we’re just for that. We need to sit down and decide.

Yes, the PDP and the National Conference didn’t fight together, but we didn’t leave the INDIA bloc. The National Conference and the Congress fought together, in spite of the fact that we perhaps surrendered more seats than we should have done. Most people who look at Jammu and Kashmir would suggest that the National Conference would perhaps have added a few more seats if we’d fought these elections on our own. But we are part of the INDIA bloc and we took that hit. Others will also have to decide. So that’s another part. Is there any other political party other than the Congress that has a pan-India presence? Yes, it ebbs and flows. Some days they’re stronger, some days they’re weaker. But I don’t think there is a village in India where you will not find somebody from the Congress party, at least a worker of the Congress party. No other political party can claim that. Therefore, the natural leadership role belongs to the largest party with the biggest presence. But then they also have to sort of play an important leadership role as well.

Manoj CG: Do you think they lack confidence?

We’re sort of unsure of where we’re going. As a constituent party of the India Bloc, I don’t know what is next for us. We need to be more regular in sitting down and talking to each other. The last time we met in one room was immediately after the Parliament results in Kharge sahab’s house. Now how long ago was that? This communication with each other, that’s missing, and that’s something I’d like to see.

Liz Mathew: What according to you has gone wrong with Arvind Kejriwal?

I can’t for a moment suggest what’s gone wrong. Obviously there are a couple of things that the BJP picked up on and used to their advantage, not the least of which was the house that the Chief Minister constructed for himself. Rightly or wrongly, the BJP latched onto that and it seems to have become an issue. The other thing I kept hearing from people living in Delhi was that the people got fed up with hearing, they’re not letting us work. Because the common refrain from people was that they’re not letting them work, then let’s find somebody who will work. So, I think that narrative of trying to suggest that we would do better, but they’re not letting us, actually backfired. What you perhaps needed was to talk about the work they had done. You should have actually sold the stuff where you, where people thought you had some success to show.

Also, the numbers suggest that an alliance would have done better. Here’s where my sympathy lies with the Aam Aadmi Party, because when you’ve won 63 out of 70, how do you seal an alliance without giving seats that you’ve won? You won all of them. You can’t do it on seven seats.

Coomi Kapoor: What is the state of the INDIA alliance? On or off?

On. Sometimes on life support, but on. We didn’t win the Lok Sabha elections but it was a fairly successful one in terms of the numbers that the Opposition was able to put into the Lok Sabha. You reduce the Modi government to a minority government, forcing him to take on allies. Unfortunately, after that, state elections, barring J&K and Jharkhand, have been a bit of a setback. So we need maybe one or two successes so that then there’s a bit more momentum behind the INDIA bloc.

Aakash Joshi: What are your thoughts on the state of minorities in India?

I don’t think it’s something that I’ve been silent on. It is a concern. It has been one for the last few years, and it continues to remain one. So this concerted effort as if Muslim sentiment doesn’t matter. The Waqf Bill is a clear example of that. At the end of the day, Waqf properties are properties that other Muslims have given for a common good. They are meant for charitable purposes, for education, for health among others. Why should a government take it upon itself to usurp those properties or to control them? And why just in the case of one particular religion? Does every religion not have these sort of bodies? So, if you are making it about charitable properties or religious properties, then do it for everybody. When you do it for only one particular religion, then it looks like you are singling out that religion for extra special treatment.

The BJP has this view that the Congress in the past has appeased Muslims or minorities. But to prove that they are not appeasing, targeting is unfair.

Aakash Joshi: The Opposition had that moment in the general elections. Now, with these losses, is it a pre-2024 situation now nationally?

The momentum is certainly with the BJP. That said, you don’t squander the numbers you have in the Lok Sabha. You have them. You have a leader of the opposition after quite a while. You have a significant number of parliamentarians sitting opposite the government on the opposition benches. That opposition does make its presence felt in parliament. Would we have liked to see a few more states, polls going our way, Haryana, Maharashtra? Certainly. But it didn’t work out. And I guess that’s for the Congress and its local allies there to figure out what went wrong.

Ritu Sarin: As Chief Minister, which are the broad areas where you would want to, if not eliminate, reduce corruption? And what are your thoughts on the allegations made by the former Governor, Satya Pal Malik, on kickbacks and infrastructure projects. What do you feel about such allegations when the Governor’s rule was there?

All areas where corruption has an impact on people’s day-to-day lives need to be tackled. Why should people have to pay money to get a license? So why should people have to pay money to sort of transfer property from one name to another? I think there is clearly scope for more accountability, more transparency, and it’s something we’d like to see. We will do it ourselves, and we’d like to push things further under a state, because the entire law and order security, policing, machinery, including vigilance, unfortunately right now is outside of the domain of the elected government. That said, we’re not making that an excuse. Wherever instances of corruption or malfeasance are reported, they are forwarded and pursued and taken to their logical conclusions. As far as Satya Pal Malik sahab’s allegations are concerned, they’re in the public domain, investigative agencies are investigating them, let those investigations reach their logical conclusion.

Harish Damodaran: In your current term, even with all the constricted powers, do you have any particular flagship schemes?

There are a couple of areas in health and education, but I am not going to preempt the budget session of the assembly, because some of these things I would like to talk about when the budget is presented. We are a couple of weeks away from our budget session, so some of the areas that require focused attention are education and health. We don’t have enough doctors in our hospitals, we don’t have enough nurses or paramedical staff in the health sector, we don’t have enough teachers in our schools, we don’t have enough engineers in our line departments. Yet when you sit down with the government of India, they tell you, your salary bill is too large. The problem largely arises because we have a far larger police force than maybe a territory our size would normally have, as a legacy of the last 30-35 years. Also because employment, private sector employment has been hard to come by.

Shahid Parvez: Amid Congress party’s continuing losing streak, Mamata Banerjee said that she is willing to lead the alliance – a proposal backed by some of your key allies. Do you think she can be considered for alternative conditions?

Anybody can be considered. These are not things that we need to first decide publicly and then discuss privately. I think it’s the other way around. Congress is in the natural position to lead a block like this. But if there are allies that disagree, then they need to convince us why they disagree with me or with those of us who don’t look for a leadership change.

Muzamil Jaleel: In the 1980s, a big conclave of all the opposing leaders was held in Kashmir by your father. Would you do such a thing?

I don’t aspire to that sort of national leadership role. I have far too much on my plate with J&K. I have not forgotten that those conclaves didn’t end well for my father. They didn’t end well for Jammu and Kashmir, because there are so many things – the conclave led to 1984, 1984 led to the accord, the accord led to the election, the election led to… so not my cup of tea. There are many competent leaders within the INDIA bloc.

Asad Rehman: The former Chief Justice of India, DY Chandrachud, recently spoke about the Article 370 judgment of the court in an interview to the BBC and justified the judgment saying that 75 years later it was alright to do away with the provision. What is your take on the judge talking about the judgment?

His judgment is in front of us. We know what he said. We know why he said it. It’s all there in black and white when the Supreme Court judgment came. So nothing he said to the BBC is in any way revelatory or new.

Mallica Joshi: What is your relationship with the bureaucracy in J&K?

Look, it’s a mixed bag. By and large, most of the offices have been good, some have found this union territory system a good way to escape accountability or to sort of delay decisions. This system is designed to give people who don’t want to work a reason not to. Accountability is tougher to sort of enforce in a system like this than it is in a normal government. If a secretary-level officer doesn’t want to do something, if they’re an IAS officer, like it or not, I can’t move them because they’re directly the responsibility of Raj Bhavan. So I have all the work and I have to work with the team that at the end of the day I don’t get to choose. It’s strange but it is what it is and I’m not going to use that as an excuse. I knew what it was like before I fought the elections. So it’s hardly as if I got to the Secretariat in the morning and suddenly got this almighty shock because this system wasn’t something that I was used to. I knew this was what I was going to get. So no excuses. We’ll make it work.

Muzamil Jaleel: You have been the CM for four months, and we don’t even have business rules.

We have business rules. They are just not business rules that we believe are the right ones. And therefore, those business rules, or rather our interpretation of those business rules under the J&K Reorganization Act are under preparation.

Muzamil Jaleel: You talked about things that you couldn’t do, but what are the things that you could do in these four months?

Amongst the things that we did, obviously, we’re changing the schedule of exams, improving the quality and quantity of electricity delivery in winter. I think that this year electricity in Kashmir has been a lot better than it has been in previous winters in terms of actual representative, inclusive government involving people in decisions that we’ve taken, involving the public representatives even prior to budget presentation. These are all things that we’ve done already and didn’t require the nod from the lieutenant governor’s office or from the government to India.

Muzamil Jaleel: Have we changed the ‘UT of mind’ to ‘State of mind’?

When I first saw that, I thought this was one of those University of WhatsApp sort of fake news things. Much to my surprise, I found that it was actually true and that this book was printed and distributed as a textbook in the immediate aftermath of 2019. But somewhere that mistake was realised, corrected. If I’m not mistaken, it was corrected prior to 2023. So this book that’s now in circulation is not the book that kids are being taught from. But it takes a genius to replace the word state with UT everywhere across the board.

Harikishan Sharma: When the Centre revoked Article 370, various claims were made about investment and people buying properties. Has that happened?

I don’t have numbers for you. I also have heard that there’s been a lot of investment, a lot of job creation and stuff like that, but I haven’t seen very much of it in the travels that I’ve done around J&K. I believe some of it is in the pipeline, some of it requires land allocation and things like that, but this sort of massive investment into manufacturing, it certainly hasn’t happened thus far. So that’s the long and the short of it.

Vikas Pathak: Are you satisfied with the argument coming from some Opposition parties over the EVMS?

I have no problem with political parties having a problem with EVMs. They are free to. I don’t have that problem. I have never used EVMs as a reason for losing an election, and I’ve lost a few, but I’ve never come back home at the end of the counting and spoken to anybody and said, yeah, I lost because the machine was stolen. There could be many reasons for why I lost. Are there sort of areas of the elections that perhaps could give us some cause for concern? Yes. I think the way in which voter lists keep, I mean, voters get added and subtracted, the way in which numbers suddenly sort of jump off voters in particular areas, this might be an area of concern. But the EVMs per se, they’re not a problem for me. The only thing I’ve said with regard to EVMs and sort of opposition to them is that it has to be consistent.

Vikas Pathak: Recently Lalu Prasad Yadav said ‘faltu hai’ for Mahakumbh. Mr Kharge said, “Dubki lagane se pet bhar jayega kya?” Do these things bolster the agenda of the BJP?

Who am I to question anybody’s faith? Different religions manifest themselves differently. I went for Umrah (pilgrimage to Mecca) a few months ago and some people can say why should it matter? My faith dictates that I go, I went. Now, if somebody’s faith dictates that they go and take a holy bath for the Maha Kumbh, why should we poke holes? Why give the BJP a chance to say that these people are against Hindus? It’s part of a wider belief system and if we can manage it and manage it reasonably well, fine. I belong to a religion that once a year goes in lakhs for Hajj, come rain or 47, 48, 50-degree temperatures and they go and spend time there. So I am the last one who can tell you that mass religious events are drama or something like that. They are part of faith.

Muzamil Jaleel: The Central government says that separatism, militancy, and protests are a story of the past. How is the ground situation?

They are not a thing of the past. Their frequency is less, the intensity is less, but the sentiment hasn’t completely dried up. If it had completely dried up, you wouldn’t have to close Jama Masjid at regular intervals and confine Mirwaiz Umar Farooq (Hurriyat Chairman) to his house. Obviously, you were worried that something untoward might happen, which means that there are still pockets where the possibility of trouble exists. So while you don’t have the sort of those visuals of large public protests, clearly, the government is still worried about areas and the possibility. Otherwise this heavy-handed approach wouldn’t have been necessary.

Manoj CG: From 2014 to 2025, the BJP’s electoral dominance sort of continues. As an observer and a practitioner of politics, what is working for BJP and Modi, and what is lacking in the Congress’s or the larger Opposition’s vocabulary?

Whatever it is the BJP is doing, we haven’t either figured it out or if we have figured it out, we can’t replicate it. Otherwise, the roles would be reversed. As a lay observer, simply of the politics of the BJP, they have a really well-oiled election machine, and it never switches off. They barely finish an election and have already moved on to the next one. Most of us take a breather. These guys don’t ever seem to switch off. Like it or not, they fight every election as if their lives depend on it. The intensity with which they go after even panchayat polls in J&K, it says a lot. They have the resources to throw at those elections as well. A bypoll for a panchayat seat also matters to them. I think that’s something we need to learn from. For the current BJP and union leadership, politics is 24-7, 365 days a year. There is no off day. We are used to being able to take a few days here, a few days there. With these guys you can’t. And when you do, they catch you out for it.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: Do you have anything in mind in terms of getting Kashmiri Pandit migrants back?

Obviously it’s something that governments talk about. Political parties do. But I’m also acutely aware of the fact that Kashmiri Pandits left because they lost their sense of security. It was snatched away from them. You can’t force them to go back. And I’m the last person who would suggest they should go back to townships or ghettos. We have to create a climate, a security climate in the valley of the sort where they are free to come back and then settle where they choose to. And that’s what we have to do. Are we there yet? No. But if the current trajectory of improving the ground situation in the valley continues, then hopefully that day will come where they’ll be able to decide. At the moment those that have come back have come back because you’ve been able to incentivise them with jobs. They should be able to come back and decide if they want to open a guest house, open a guest house. They want to be part of a hotel, be part of a hotel, if they want to join the education system, join the education system. But do it of your own accord, not because the government is sort of dangling that carrot in front of you. Unfortunately in the last few years, we’ve also seen instances where they were targeted. Those employees who came as part of this government package were targeted and some of them even went back. That’s the sort of thing we need to avoid.

Raj Kamal Jha: As an elected leader exploring the middle ground, how do you see social media, polarisation in politics?

(Social media) is a factor for the good, but it’s also a factor that can be very problematic. How do you separate truth from lies? You have to guard against the possibility that social media will create problems. It’s a reality, but you can’t wish it away.

Raj Kamal Jha: Is there a technology answer or a political answer or a mix of both?

No, the answer will have to be political because the technology is there for everybody. The answer is not in technology, sort of censoring it. The answer is ensuring that you get your message across at least as forcefully as the other one is. If you have the facts that are able to counter whatever it is that is causing a problem, then get out there and put those facts out. I’m one of those who believes that it’s better to get ahead of the story. Put your point of view out before you’re responding to a crisis. Try and control the narrative rather than respond to a narrative that has already been set up. That’s not always as easy to do in politics because sometimes the instinct is to just hunker down and let the storm pass, but that’s not always the best instinct either.

Muzamil Jaleel: In your first speech in the Assembly, you said there was silence but people have started talking again

When was the last time before this you actually saw newspaper columns in Jammu and Kashmir criticising the government? I have had more cartoons in the last four months than the lieutenant governor’s government has had since 2019. People who wouldn’t dare say anything about the government prior to October of last year are now quite happy to wax eloquent about everything that’s going wrong in Jammu and Kashmir now. That’s part of democracy. People have to have the right to express an opinion and I think more than enough people do that in J&K.

Sheen Kachroo: With a lot of investors coming in, industries are also coming in. But Kashmir is known for the snow-clad mountains and green, lush spaces. How is your government planning for the environment?

There are days when our AQI rivals Delhi for how bad it is. Air quality is a concern, as is climate change. I sincerely believe that we’re not doing future generations any favours by not making it an issue. I wish it was just something that is creeping, that is more talked about than actually witnessed. But we see visible effects of the climate changing, glaciers that used to touch the meadows of Sonamarg are now three quarters of the way up the mountain. At this point I have between 80 to 85 percent deficit in precipitation over the winter. Now J&K is largely rain-fed, our agriculture is based on the fact that we have an abundance of water, which is why we grow rice. It’s only in the dry areas that we grow maize, but with this kind of water shortage, how am I going to sustain rice as a crop? Horticulture depends on water. There is a clear distinction between the saffron production of fields that have irrigation and saffron production of fields that don’t. And the productivity of the fields that don’t have irrigation is so much lower. I should have been heading to Gulmarg on the 22nd for the inauguration of the Khelo India Winter Games. Sustainable development has to be the yardstick by which we measure any investment. What is the damage that it will do to our environment? If I’m looking at a hotel in an area, what are the measures that are going to be introduced to protect the environment? We need to make it compulsory now for new buildings to have rainwater harvesting. We need to educate people about being more concerned and cautious about the environment.

Muzamil Jaleel: During your campaign, you took off your cap and said, ‘iski laj rakhna’. Since then, you have not taken off your cap. How big is this burden?

No, I think to call it a burden would be very unfair. It’s an opportunity. It’s a responsibility. It’s an opportunity that we fought to get. A burden is something that is dumped on you. We actively campaigned to be put in a position where we could govern Jammu and Kashmir. I’m here because I wanted to be here. I asked people to put me here. And it’s now my job to live up to the promises and the expectations that people have. My job is to minimise the extent of disappointment that people will feel.